During the Venice Film Festival, Universal Film & Television Journal’s Amir Ganjavie interviewed Anna Krupnova and Denis Krupnov, co-founders of REASON8 Films, the London-based international sales and production company. Anna is in charge of international sales and Denis is in charge of production and acquisitions.
Amir Ganjavie, UniversalCinema Magazine (UM): What kind of movies is your company looking for?
Anna Krupnova (AK): We would say the ones that resonate with us, hence the name of the company, REASON8 Films. It’s the films that will resonate with us, and that can be appealing to both festival and mainstream audiences.
Denis Krupnov (DK): About 75% of our films are high-end arthouse, meaning films that can premiere at top international festivals, and through the top festivals, reach all-rights distributors in foreign countries. And 25% are genre films. But most of our films, about 80%, are auteur films, meaning by writer-director. And about half of our films are from first-time filmmakers.
(UM): And when you say the film that resonates with you, do you have a definition for what makes a good movie for your company?
(DK): Yes, a good film, one that can travel, would be a film with a subject matter/premise, that is familiar to the world audience but set in specific cultural circumstances or specific cultural settings. So, it’s unique enough in terms of its setting but universal in terms of the message.
(UM): And how are you involved with the production of films?
(DK): We exec-produce, co-produce, or produced some of the films. We’re involved in many international projects and we do a lot of co-productions. Some of the projects we originate and we produce them fully on set. Some of the projects we just co-produce or exec-produce and bring some of the elements from the U.K.
(UM): And have you noticed any changes in distribution either before or after COVID?
(AK): I would say that it’s less likely that films will be considered old if they’re from the previous year. Which I think is where COVID helped in terms of the distribution. Previously, when the film would premiere at a festival or would be released in the 2nd half of a year, it would immediately become old from the distribution point of view the following year starting in January. Nowadays, even if the film premiered at the end, from Venice onwards, it’s considered fresh for the next year for distribution, because COVID saw them having a lot of back catalogs and a backlog of films because of the cinema closures. So, it effectively helped reconsider the age of the film, if that makes any sense.
(DK): Another thing for arthouse films – festivals have become the new theatrical release. In many countries, the festivals are the only theatrical release for a film. You premiere at the festivals and then distributors will hopefully do a few screens as well. But it won’t be a premiere, they’ll use the festival premiere as the main release, and then go for limited cinema release if any, streaming, pay TV, etc.
(UM): Yeah, I see that many arthouse films are now travelling only through the festival, but does that help them financially, this form of distribution?
(DK): For filmmakers, that works really well, because most of these films are usually funded by 90% of public money. The main goal of the public funding organization is to promote local talent, whether it’s a film from New Zealand or Spain, the main goal is always to promote the talent. So, the more festivals it travels, that’s the return for money for the funding organization. For us, as sales agents, of course, it’s not the same as if you sell an American mainstream film and make a bigger commission. At the same time, the festivals pay festival screening fees because they understand that if they don’t pay then no one can make any money. And festivals’ budget allows them to pay some screening fees to the films.
(UM): And with the democratization of films, with more being produced every year, from 300 ten years ago to 2000 now, is it more difficult for you to distribute films?
(AK): I would say no because there was always this concern that there are more films made than the market can consume. And as long as we don’t acquire films just for the sake of having a massive catalog, but select films carefully, know the buyers in each territory, and know which films they normally would go for, we are good. So, we don’t pitch a film with ghosts in it to China, where they don’t do ghosts, because that won’t travel there anyway. So, we effectively tailor the approach, so, it doesn’t affect us as much how many films are being made per se. It’s probably more of a question for the cinema chains.
(DK): And for the filmmakers as well, because they always struggle for the spot at the festival. The festival can only take 1 or 2 films from one specific region or territory. And if the festival can take only 1 or 2 films, then obviously, if there is a country where 500 films are produced, filmmakers will struggle. But I think that’s, to some extent, a good thing for such film industries as British, which used to be very self-centric. When filmmakers know the BFI London Film Festival can only take eleven films for debut features, they have to go abroad. And that helps promote the talent because if they want to premiere at a good festival, they have to go somewhere else, outside of the film’s country of origin. So, to some extent, it opens the borders for many countries. But it’s nevertheless a big issue for filmmakers. And it’s difficult to find a good place to premiere for them. It’s for sure very difficult now to premiere the film.
(UM): I’ve talked to some festival programmers and arthouse cinema can be uncommon in cinemas outside festivals.
(AK): The audience needs to be educated, especially when it comes to arthouse. And very rarely, international distributors, including the UK distributors, take the opportunity or accept the challenge, because it’s much easier to go with the known formula you know the audience will respond to. But when it’s something more unusual, deeper, like an arthouse feature, you have to make a special effort. And whether it’s the budget constraints, whether it’s any other reasons, they are not always able to.
(DK): In the UK, if you put London aside, there aren’t many people who are ready to watch foreign language films. So, yes, that’s the challenge. And the only way for these films to have premieres in the UK is actually go to the festivals in the UK.
(UM): And at what stage do you usually pick a film? Do you come aboard during the script stage or when there’s a cut?
(DK): Pretty much all of our films we pick up before they’ve been cut. About 50% of the films we get on board are at the script stage. We often advise/comment on the script development, then on the cut, and so on. We attend a lot of work-in-progress sections of film festivals and watch many rough cuts. If the film is completely finished, then the problem is that when we watch a film and we think it’s really good but there are a few elements that don’t work then we can’t do anything. And that’s the end of the story.
So, the best way for filmmakers, or any company, is to approach early because, unlike festivals, sales companies are keen to watch rough cuts. If it’s not good, we’ll tell you what’s not good and you can hopefully improve it. As for the festivals you need to show the cut you’re confident in.
(UM): Okay because I’ve heard from filmmakers who showed the early stages of their movies and got rejected.
(DK): By festivals?
(UM): No, by a sales agent. They said that they concluded that it’s always better that we show them the final cut, or very close to the final cut.
(AK): I strongly disagree with that because there is no way you can maneuver or make the film even better than it already is if it’s the final cut. And it’s always good to have an outsider’s opinion. For the many years that we’ve worked in the industry I know when you are too close to the material you need someone to tell you there’s a different approach. We, as sales agents, can bring some fresh air telling them it’s a good premise, but it can be better by trying this and that.
(DK): And it’s best, if it’s possible, to convince the sales company to read the script. And then show them not the rough cut, but the fine cut. So, if we know the script and we know the material we know that maybe you should change or bring something back. But if you’re showing just a rough cut when you’re not sure about the cut yourself, it’s not a good idea. I agree with the filmmakers when they say they should wait for a good cut. But it shouldn’t be the final cut. It should be a fine cut, but on which the discussion is still open. And most of the films we work with, the films which won awards, that’s where filmmakers were very open to discussions. And we had long discussions, and often something is changed to tune it up and eventually we get the best product possible.
(UM): You work with about 50% first-time feature filmmakers. How do you decide they are capable of enacting their vision, is it just from the script?
(DK): Of course, the story needs to be fresh and interesting for an international audience, but we also like to watch some material, whether it’s a short film or something they made before. Most of the time we work with writer-directors so we have a discussion with them about their vision, and if you see the person isn’t confident or is still searching for their style, then we probably won’t get on board. But if the person has already nailed their style through other projects, usually a short film, can describe their vision for how they’re going to shoot the film, and you already have the script, that’s when —
(AK): It gels.
(UM): And in terms of quotas, do you seek any race, gender, or geographical?
(AK): If you’re talking about geographical, we try to make sure there aren’t two films in the same year from the same country, from the same geographical region, because they effectively make them compete against each other. We do want to see gender equality, we want to see representation for all, and all origins. We look at it as a piece of art that can be approachable and can be understood internationally but we don’t have a specific preference.
(DK): We are not afraid to take a risk, because about a quarter of our films are genre films, historically. And they traditionally generate more revenues. Some films we know won’t be money-making enterprises for us, but if we feel passionate about the projects, and the filmmakers, we’ll get on board.
(AK): And any subject matter, male or female directors, LGBTQ. It’s about what the film is, it has to resonate with us.
(DK): For example, we have a Serbian film (Kristina) about a transgender sex worker, made by a male director, Nikola Spasić. We have a Ukrainian film from 2020 (Bad Roads) about the Donbas War, made by a female director, Natalya Vorozhbit.
(UM): I heard this from the distributor that if their films go to big festivals like Cannes, Berlin, Sundance, or Venice, they can circulate or have a good journey. Sometimes the other festivals only pick the movies that go to this big film festival. Is it a kind of problem also in your case? Because they told me that if you don’t go to the big festivals, your movie will not travel well.
(DK): Yeah, that depends, there are some festivals which show “best of the fest”, they look for the best films from the top festivals and show that. Some festivals go completely in the opposite direction and want to discover and give a chance to films that couldn’t premiere at the big festivals. I think there are enough festivals for everyone and it’s important to know which festivals are looking for what. So, if it’s a festival that is looking for the best of the fest, you don’t go there with a film that hasn’t premiered yet. If it’s a festival that wants to discover new talent and new projects, and they don’t want overexposed films, then that’s where you go with such a film.
(UM): I heard that for English arthouse movies if they don’t go to the festivals, it means that it will be very tough to sell them. What’s your experience?
(DK): If it’s a pure arthouse film, there is no chance that you can get the attention of a distributor if you don’t premiere at the big festivals because distributors are overloaded.
(AK): And because once you establish the language as English, you are competing with North America, Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa. Of course, it’s different dialects, but you’re still perceived as an English-language film. So, you are increasing your competition. And if it is an arthouse film, an English language film, then it’s double trouble because they can only select so many at a particular time.
(UM): And in English arthouse films do you think it’s important to have big names? Because I heard that no one knows them in other countries.
(AK): I think the films, the English language films, if you look at the selections of any festival, the English language films that are in top festivals would always have a name attached to it. Because that’s how they differentiate themselves in an arthouse world, from other English language films.
(UM): Have you noticed an evolution since the arrival of streamers? How has it changed the distribution landscape?
(AK): I think it helped, and it’s become more competitive. Streamers always know what works for their viewers because they do very good viewership selection and analytics. Distributors know what their audience is screening. Are we talking from the international sales point of view?
(UM): Yeah.
(AK): So, I think it’s just more competition, better for us to have more buyers.
(DK): Yeah, the more the better. It’s a great time for creators. You can create something that fits the audience of a streamer. You can create something that just goes to some niche festivals, but it’s your own project, and you don’t care about the streamers. You can shoot something for YouTube. So, I think they’re all different niches. People think the arthouse films can go to Netflix, and they can, sometimes, but it’s actually not really Netflix material. But you can successfully create the Netflix material if you want to.
(AK): As long as you do the research, and you know what works for each buyer.
(UM): I heard from some filmmakers who gave their films to the streamers, but they didn’t get any money back.
(AK): That’s when you need a sales agent who knows the deal terms, because it’s very easy to get trapped, not only with a streamer, but with any all-rights distributor. Because it’s much easier to hide some of the information from you if you’re an inexperienced filmmaker, as opposed to a sales agent. Because we know the deal terms, we know what works, we know what doesn’t work, we know how to read the royalty reports. So, you know, it’s much harder for us to get trapped. Let’s put it this way.
(DK): Yeah, and also for the filmmaker, I think the main problem should be, not that we don’t see much money, because the film is state-funded in most cases for intellectual arthouse, but you need exposure. And if you go to the streamers, you would probably have 1 or 2 festivals, and at most one month of theatrical. While for the filmmaker, and for the public agency that funded you, they would prefer you go to festivals over 12 months and have the film in cinemas. For example, when we do all-rights distribution deals with the United States, even if the film is really small, we still ask for cinema release because it’s important for filmmakers. So, it’s exposure that you don’t get with these streamers.
(UM): Any final pieces of wisdom?
(AK): Research. It’s very important to understand not only who the streamers are, or who the distributors are, but also who the sales agents are, and who the public funding bodies are. So, as long as a filmmaker does the research and understands how to approach the project with the best possible outcome, then that’s already 50% of success.
(DK): I think filmmakers should not be afraid to share their work. It shouldn’t be like you impart the sales company with all your screeners and everything, but you can just share your pitch, and tell about your approach from the earlier stage. No one is going to steal your idea, no one is going to steal your screen art. The more feedback you get, the better, from the beginning. When you get other people and companies really involved, that’s when your chances for success increase.
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